Totally agree with you Simon! Since I love orange /amber wines, I always search for those on the winelist and it's not helpfull at all if they don't have their own section- unless you know the wines already and you have to scroll the white wine part. If not you have to ask the staff if there is any 'white' wine with longer skin contact -if they know about the length of maceration...
I agree with you 100% - I live in Brooklyn and I have been going around asking wine bars (that I love) why they call it skin contact ??? as you would expect no reasonable answers.....just to name a few: With Others, Plus de Vin. At Rude Mouth they call it Skin Contact/Orange - ?
At Cavallini they finally call it Orange. On the other hand in Lisbon they seem to call orange at some of the wine bars I went ( Pif, Jasmin da Mouraria). Thanks for your usual insight!
In explaining the term "orange wine" I like to point out that:
• No white wine is white.
• No red wine are red.
• But most orange wine is orange.
And not just to ask rhetorically - as you implicitly did - "When have you ever drunk a 'red wine' that was red?" but to add: "You want genuinely red wine? I'll show you some red-- occasionally even stop sign-red - wines ... but they'll be ORANGE ;- )"
Nice article Simon. "skin-contact" terminology is also being used in some fine-dining restaurants' wine lists here in US, probably more than an " Orange wine" categorization. That said, there are some legal boundaries too. Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) 27 CFR § 4.21(a)(4) explicitly allows grape wine to be designated as "Amber Wine" based on its color. On the other hand, TTB defines Citrus Wine as wine produced from the juice of citrus fruit. It says: Fruit wine derived wholly (except for sugar, water, or added alcohol) from one kind of fruit shall be designated by the word “wine” qualified by the name of such fruit, e.g., “peach wine,” “blackberry wine,” “orange wine.”
Yes, another commenter pointed this out - but I think this is very specifically about wine labelling law, it doesn't restrict how a restaurant or retailer can categorise their wines does it?
It is illegal to use the term 'orange wine' on a wine label in the US. The TTB in their all mighty wisdom have reserved that term exclusively for wines made from oranges (and there is, apparently, one producer of wine made from oranges in Florida).
I work for a US importer doing all the label agreements and we have tried the rosé isn't made from roses line. The TTB was unmoved.
So that is probably the main reason why US based businesses are cautious about using the term orange wine.
I have no idea why European or other non-US businesses don't use the term. That said I've come across orange wines where the skins were in contact for 6 months (it was a very cold winery) and others when the fermentating wine was pressed off at a density of around 1020° (about 4-6 days into the fermentation at 16-20°C) to minimise tannin extraction. While the market place can cope with the concept of light and fresh reds AND big tannic reds, is orange still too novel for people to accept that range of styles under one name? (That's a genuine question. I have no idea).
And to answer your second point, I think in an age of super popular wines like Gulp Hablo, the market surely understands that orange wines can be light and fruity? As well as many other things.
I had a wine made from oranges at Millésime Bio a few years back. It wasn't great but it did leave me with a reluctance to use the term orange wine. But, if you're reclaiming it, then I shall shrug off my hesitations :)
Excellent rant, even as I have to ‘fess up that I am guilty as charged – but you have deftly unpicked all my arguments in defence. I will never be able to write ‘skin contact’ again without feeling the Woolf breathing disapproval down my neck!
Red wines might not actually be perfectly red but they definitely red in comparison to rosé. The use of "skin contact" as a vague catch all term in part comes from wanting include whites that have seen more skin contact than what might commercially be expected but aren't, as you point out, orange.
I think having a rosé equivalent for orange would help see the decline of the use of "skin contact" to describe them since you'd create two slightly more specific groups out of one currently quite vague group.
Maybe the English language just lacks vocabulary for that part of the colour spectrum?
EU law - there's no orange wine. It's either red, white, or pink. Also, a marketing presumption that "skin contact" provokes intimacy and desire to "read" it, similarly to the asterisks in the title. ;) Cheers!
I have not drunk much Orange wine. I first saw it in Verona about 6 years ago and was intrigued but not enough to order any. It looked perfect for the hot sunny day it was. I like Rose if it has something about it. Like the Valpolicella rose by Alpha Zeta I tried about 10 years ago, characterful and unmistakably Valpolicellan. I think I would like the right Orange wines so only one way to find out, Dive in!
Are they not then just white wines with skin contact? Wouldn't this be a more correct /useful presentation on a wine list so the customer can't get a glass white that has more texture than they intended? On the other hand, I suppose we might have dig the hole even deeper to indicate skin contact on all wines - red, rose, etc. - on a list......at least using 'orange' will prompt the average consumer to ask 'what is orange'....hmmmm
I hope I've given sufficient justification in the article as to why I don't think the phrase "skin contact" is a good choice. It's too vague and unhelpful.
Most average wine drinkers don't want or need to know how wine is made. They just want clear, concise signposting to something they'll enjoy.
Totally agree with you Simon! Since I love orange /amber wines, I always search for those on the winelist and it's not helpfull at all if they don't have their own section- unless you know the wines already and you have to scroll the white wine part. If not you have to ask the staff if there is any 'white' wine with longer skin contact -if they know about the length of maceration...
indeed, they could just make it simpler.
I agree with you 100% - I live in Brooklyn and I have been going around asking wine bars (that I love) why they call it skin contact ??? as you would expect no reasonable answers.....just to name a few: With Others, Plus de Vin. At Rude Mouth they call it Skin Contact/Orange - ?
At Cavallini they finally call it Orange. On the other hand in Lisbon they seem to call orange at some of the wine bars I went ( Pif, Jasmin da Mouraria). Thanks for your usual insight!
In explaining the term "orange wine" I like to point out that:
• No white wine is white.
• No red wine are red.
• But most orange wine is orange.
And not just to ask rhetorically - as you implicitly did - "When have you ever drunk a 'red wine' that was red?" but to add: "You want genuinely red wine? I'll show you some red-- occasionally even stop sign-red - wines ... but they'll be ORANGE ;- )"
e.g.:
https://weinsprech.de/grauburgunder-wird-rot/
Nice article Simon. "skin-contact" terminology is also being used in some fine-dining restaurants' wine lists here in US, probably more than an " Orange wine" categorization. That said, there are some legal boundaries too. Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) 27 CFR § 4.21(a)(4) explicitly allows grape wine to be designated as "Amber Wine" based on its color. On the other hand, TTB defines Citrus Wine as wine produced from the juice of citrus fruit. It says: Fruit wine derived wholly (except for sugar, water, or added alcohol) from one kind of fruit shall be designated by the word “wine” qualified by the name of such fruit, e.g., “peach wine,” “blackberry wine,” “orange wine.”
Yes, another commenter pointed this out - but I think this is very specifically about wine labelling law, it doesn't restrict how a restaurant or retailer can categorise their wines does it?
Yes- this is true.
It is illegal to use the term 'orange wine' on a wine label in the US. The TTB in their all mighty wisdom have reserved that term exclusively for wines made from oranges (and there is, apparently, one producer of wine made from oranges in Florida).
I work for a US importer doing all the label agreements and we have tried the rosé isn't made from roses line. The TTB was unmoved.
So that is probably the main reason why US based businesses are cautious about using the term orange wine.
I have no idea why European or other non-US businesses don't use the term. That said I've come across orange wines where the skins were in contact for 6 months (it was a very cold winery) and others when the fermentating wine was pressed off at a density of around 1020° (about 4-6 days into the fermentation at 16-20°C) to minimise tannin extraction. While the market place can cope with the concept of light and fresh reds AND big tannic reds, is orange still too novel for people to accept that range of styles under one name? (That's a genuine question. I have no idea).
And to answer your second point, I think in an age of super popular wines like Gulp Hablo, the market surely understands that orange wines can be light and fruity? As well as many other things.
A very fair point and thank you for reminding me Robert. But AFAIK the label ruling is just about what's on the bottle?
I've never heard that it's illegal to call them orange wines on a restaurant list etc.
And there are plenty of examples where people do, for example Primal wine https://primalwine.com/collections/orange-wine-skin-contact-natural-wine
(OK they cover all bases but they lead with the term 'orange wine')
“People will think they’re made from oranges.”
I had a wine made from oranges at Millésime Bio a few years back. It wasn't great but it did leave me with a reluctance to use the term orange wine. But, if you're reclaiming it, then I shall shrug off my hesitations :)
Sure, they exist in Southern Spain and are - I think? - called vina naranja? I've had one too.
I am not trying to reclaim it alone. My point is the ship has sailed. Why do you insist on swimming right into its path?
Excellent rant, even as I have to ‘fess up that I am guilty as charged – but you have deftly unpicked all my arguments in defence. I will never be able to write ‘skin contact’ again without feeling the Woolf breathing disapproval down my neck!
No-one: The wine world is rational
The Wine world:
I have definitely been presented with an unexpected orange wine when ordering from the white part of the menu - infuriating!
I fully agree with you: white, orange, rosé, red. What's so hard about that?
Exactly! I think some people just like making things complicated.
Red wines might not actually be perfectly red but they definitely red in comparison to rosé. The use of "skin contact" as a vague catch all term in part comes from wanting include whites that have seen more skin contact than what might commercially be expected but aren't, as you point out, orange.
I think having a rosé equivalent for orange would help see the decline of the use of "skin contact" to describe them since you'd create two slightly more specific groups out of one currently quite vague group.
Maybe the English language just lacks vocabulary for that part of the colour spectrum?
EU law - there's no orange wine. It's either red, white, or pink. Also, a marketing presumption that "skin contact" provokes intimacy and desire to "read" it, similarly to the asterisks in the title. ;) Cheers!
I have not drunk much Orange wine. I first saw it in Verona about 6 years ago and was intrigued but not enough to order any. It looked perfect for the hot sunny day it was. I like Rose if it has something about it. Like the Valpolicella rose by Alpha Zeta I tried about 10 years ago, characterful and unmistakably Valpolicellan. I think I would like the right Orange wines so only one way to find out, Dive in!
Are they not then just white wines with skin contact? Wouldn't this be a more correct /useful presentation on a wine list so the customer can't get a glass white that has more texture than they intended? On the other hand, I suppose we might have dig the hole even deeper to indicate skin contact on all wines - red, rose, etc. - on a list......at least using 'orange' will prompt the average consumer to ask 'what is orange'....hmmmm
I hope I've given sufficient justification in the article as to why I don't think the phrase "skin contact" is a good choice. It's too vague and unhelpful.
Most average wine drinkers don't want or need to know how wine is made. They just want clear, concise signposting to something they'll enjoy.