Yes, exactly, let's not bicker over wine categories and winemaking semantics and let's celebrate this rare wine win -- we can ignite the debate again once the wine industry is growing strong again, for now take the "W".
What it comes down to looks to me like intentionally misleading the market (by not forcefully correcting resellers deliberate or ignorance based untrue marketing. Untrue marketing can not only mean what’s written or spoken about a product it’s also not correcting people’s perceptions based on what they’re led to believe). A wine with this much sulphur in it is a conventional wine, doesn’t matter if it’s “orange” or not.
I suggest that it's maybe a bit more nuanced than that. The lesson here is that not all orange wines are automatically natural wines (nor must they or should they be), and that not everything with a colourful label and low alcohol is automatically a natural wine.
It's also fair warning that the idea of natural wine has reached a point of parody. it should be a philosophical or idealistic construct, but instead it has become a marketing meme that can be appropriated by anyone.
I don't really blame T Edwards for marketing their wine in this way. They knew which type of consumer they wanted to reach, and it was a success.
I don't believe that standing back and not correcting peoples belief of what they're buying is ethical marketing if this is what has been happening. In Australia it could likely be something the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission would have a look at. It is quite astonishing but maybe not surprising the lack of knowledge many wine resellers and their staff have though (in addition to the importers/distributors salespeople in many cases). At our bar/shop we often get told that wines are "natural" by importers/distributors but when we look at the spec sheets they are unnatural in many areas. Maybe it's not deliberate misrepresentation, just complete lack of education.
I get that, but I think T Edwards have been more than transparent here. They made no claims that the wine is natural, they provided all the tech. Is it their fault if a retailer misrepresents their product? And is it their responsibility to keep an eye on hundreds (maybe thousands?) of end-retailer's websites or wine lists?
I think the bigger picture is probably a misunderstanding in the eyes of consumers, distributors etc of what "natural" really is or what it should mean. And then we get to the issue of it still being pretty nebulous and undefined in many contexts.
I am skeptical, without good empirical evidence, that it is likely - let alone that the likelihood is pretty high - that wines like this will lead drinkers to genuinely natural wine. I'm willing to change my mind if I see the evidence. Do you have any?
I don't have any evidence, but I suspect if 300,000 bottles of Gulp Hablo are sold to (let's guess) 100,000 customers, maybe at least 5,000 of those customers will be curious enough to try other orange wines, which is going to lead them in a natural direction sooner or later.
Not sure how I can prove this. I need to speak to some independent retailers I guess!
I would add that my skepticism is based on the fact this notion has failed for small artisan producers in many other areas. Big organics are the major beneficiaries of the increased interest in organic fruit and vegetables, with many small farmers campaigning on this issue, just as one example.
The one point of distinction that *might* make Gulp Hablo a better "gateway" wine for smaller lot natural wines, is that it's predominantly in wine shops, and not so much in big chain grocery stores or big box stores like Target or Walmart. Which means Hablo is being sold in the same places that smaller lot Natural wines would also exist. Usually the lack of crossover has to do with the markets and stores that sell bulk wine aren't even the same places (or really even the same market) as small lot fine wine.
I'm not as well versed on the food industry, but there's also a pretty stark divide between the big grocery chains and the smaller independent shops. Big organics would dominate the big chains, which is where most of the money is, and small grocery stores aren't as much a separate and distinct market as they are with big box vs. wine shops.
Great take Simon. Mostly in agreement, though I do question whether "an orange wine in a clear liter bottle with a cartoonish label" can really = cultural appropriation of the Natural wine movement (and whether "cultural appropriation" can even be claimed for a no-specific-culture based philosophy.) Cartoon labels are simply popular right now - I had a retailer really enjoy a wine recently but comment on how it was hard to sell, because the label looked too "grocery store" aka not "fun enough". Consumers are just into that style of label right now, and helps them distinguish the difference from a Meiomi label vs. anything else. And in that sense, Gulp Hablo IS a step away from pure grocery store fare.
At some point, Natural wine has to accept that they are not a promotional style or label or the only version of a finer wine. They get to claim what they actually are, but no one has a claim on promotional style if the facts are accurate. And, as you point out, why oh why do we hate gateway wines so much? The liklihood of Gulp Hablo leading more drinkers to actual Naural wine is pretty high.
Yes, exactly, let's not bicker over wine categories and winemaking semantics and let's celebrate this rare wine win -- we can ignite the debate again once the wine industry is growing strong again, for now take the "W".
yes I'm with you.
What it comes down to looks to me like intentionally misleading the market (by not forcefully correcting resellers deliberate or ignorance based untrue marketing. Untrue marketing can not only mean what’s written or spoken about a product it’s also not correcting people’s perceptions based on what they’re led to believe). A wine with this much sulphur in it is a conventional wine, doesn’t matter if it’s “orange” or not.
I suggest that it's maybe a bit more nuanced than that. The lesson here is that not all orange wines are automatically natural wines (nor must they or should they be), and that not everything with a colourful label and low alcohol is automatically a natural wine.
It's also fair warning that the idea of natural wine has reached a point of parody. it should be a philosophical or idealistic construct, but instead it has become a marketing meme that can be appropriated by anyone.
I don't really blame T Edwards for marketing their wine in this way. They knew which type of consumer they wanted to reach, and it was a success.
I don't believe that standing back and not correcting peoples belief of what they're buying is ethical marketing if this is what has been happening. In Australia it could likely be something the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission would have a look at. It is quite astonishing but maybe not surprising the lack of knowledge many wine resellers and their staff have though (in addition to the importers/distributors salespeople in many cases). At our bar/shop we often get told that wines are "natural" by importers/distributors but when we look at the spec sheets they are unnatural in many areas. Maybe it's not deliberate misrepresentation, just complete lack of education.
I get that, but I think T Edwards have been more than transparent here. They made no claims that the wine is natural, they provided all the tech. Is it their fault if a retailer misrepresents their product? And is it their responsibility to keep an eye on hundreds (maybe thousands?) of end-retailer's websites or wine lists?
I think the bigger picture is probably a misunderstanding in the eyes of consumers, distributors etc of what "natural" really is or what it should mean. And then we get to the issue of it still being pretty nebulous and undefined in many contexts.
I am skeptical, without good empirical evidence, that it is likely - let alone that the likelihood is pretty high - that wines like this will lead drinkers to genuinely natural wine. I'm willing to change my mind if I see the evidence. Do you have any?
I don't have any evidence, but I suspect if 300,000 bottles of Gulp Hablo are sold to (let's guess) 100,000 customers, maybe at least 5,000 of those customers will be curious enough to try other orange wines, which is going to lead them in a natural direction sooner or later.
Not sure how I can prove this. I need to speak to some independent retailers I guess!
Yeah, not sure anyone is paying for that market research.
I would add that my skepticism is based on the fact this notion has failed for small artisan producers in many other areas. Big organics are the major beneficiaries of the increased interest in organic fruit and vegetables, with many small farmers campaigning on this issue, just as one example.
The one point of distinction that *might* make Gulp Hablo a better "gateway" wine for smaller lot natural wines, is that it's predominantly in wine shops, and not so much in big chain grocery stores or big box stores like Target or Walmart. Which means Hablo is being sold in the same places that smaller lot Natural wines would also exist. Usually the lack of crossover has to do with the markets and stores that sell bulk wine aren't even the same places (or really even the same market) as small lot fine wine.
I'm not as well versed on the food industry, but there's also a pretty stark divide between the big grocery chains and the smaller independent shops. Big organics would dominate the big chains, which is where most of the money is, and small grocery stores aren't as much a separate and distinct market as they are with big box vs. wine shops.
Sorry this is @davebaxterwino as Simon and I already went back and forth about this in comments on a previous article.
Great take Simon. Mostly in agreement, though I do question whether "an orange wine in a clear liter bottle with a cartoonish label" can really = cultural appropriation of the Natural wine movement (and whether "cultural appropriation" can even be claimed for a no-specific-culture based philosophy.) Cartoon labels are simply popular right now - I had a retailer really enjoy a wine recently but comment on how it was hard to sell, because the label looked too "grocery store" aka not "fun enough". Consumers are just into that style of label right now, and helps them distinguish the difference from a Meiomi label vs. anything else. And in that sense, Gulp Hablo IS a step away from pure grocery store fare.
At some point, Natural wine has to accept that they are not a promotional style or label or the only version of a finer wine. They get to claim what they actually are, but no one has a claim on promotional style if the facts are accurate. And, as you point out, why oh why do we hate gateway wines so much? The liklihood of Gulp Hablo leading more drinkers to actual Naural wine is pretty high.
Well perhaps I was waxing lyrical there, but I'm just trying to portray how people who are deeply invested in the natural wine community may feel.
Now I need to consider Adam's assertion in the other thread!