I am, like you susceptible to mouse. I am just back from a trip to Europe and gained a few personal insights / new questions. My colleague, (whose knowledge exceeds my own) looked to me if he thought he noticed something, FWIW. Two things :
The accumulation of acid over the course of the tasting seemed to trigger heightened sensitivity. A few times, I rinsed with water after a string of wines that had coated my mouth and the mouse disappeared. I think this ties to the pH in one's mouth at the moment of tasting. And 2, I've had very few cavities, which I think is related in part to chemistry and pH in my mouth in general. This is speculation, but lower pH = more degradation of enamel = more potential cavities. This is a personal observation only, but one I'll watch for in conversations.
Finally, speaking as an importer the idea that "we can wait for a few months for mouse to resolve" is terribly problematic. I've had more than one estate lose steam in the market because customers and my sales team jump on new arrivals only to be disappointed. Good luck rebuilding momentum in a crowded market when a wine from a producer is off. The reality is that this can kill a producer's chances of succeeding. Opening a delicious, resolved version of the wine 6 months later is rarely enough to turn the tide.
Thanks so much for these super fascinating comments.
I am confused about the acid part, because acidity is kind of the enemy of mousy taint. However, what I have noticed is that some food pairings destroy mousiness and render it totally invisible. I have not yet properly analysed what kind of foods are needed, but I'm sure once again that it's the pH of your mouth/palate that is being affected.
Agree on the acid. I think I am stating this incorrectly - the string of acidic wines is not a build up of acid, but (maybe) more and more saliva that is reducing the acid in my mouth, assuming my mouth does in fact have has a higher pH. The water would reset my mouth to lower levels of acid and a higher ph, perhaps? Whatever the reasons, it was repeatable over and over.
Unfortunately, I am susceptible to it too. It disgusts me, the bottle goes straight down the sink. There is also, for me, repeat offender status - ie there are some producers whose wines keep giving me mousiness and are now excluded from my purchases.
I have been on the other side of the equation (very rarely) and it does disappear, from barrel and bottle but it's guesswork as to when. So, every sympathy for sommeliers
We drink quite a lot of zero added wines but never encountered mousiness (so maybe unaware/unable) i do however recently had w couple of Georgian wines that had such an intense smoky peatiness towards burned plastic. They covered the whole profile of the wines, and made them undrinkable. Do you recognize this? Is it also a fault? Thank you for your informative and fun pieces, love your writing! Bas
Hi Bas, that intense smokiness sounds familiar indeed, but is not (I don't think) mousiness. I have had wines with a profile like this from Kakheti, when the grapes are a bit on the over-ripe side, or maybe yields too high. And six months skin contact in qvevri probably accentuates it as they get quite extracted.
So I guess not a fault per se, but just clumsy winemaking or poor decisions in the vineyard.
I’m very sensitive to mouse taint and can’t stand it.
I think defenders of it as “part of the style” (or in any way acceptable) are damaging the perception of natural wines.
That said, there are a few ways to mask it, and even enjoy the wine if you must: match the dustiness /mustiness of it with food that has a similar level.
IA Japanese natural wine bar owner also advised lemon juice (on the food, or a swig) to lower the pH in your mouth, although I’m not sure how that affects the overall flavour of the wine. It could be quite a tart pairing.
In a similar way, charcuterie can apparently mask brettanomyces. I start to wonder if that’s why some producers of dirtier wines insist on it in their tasting rooms (something I noticed in Gaillac, France where it’s not common to serve food in tasting rooms like they do in Italy)
I would qualify the statement about mousy wines not being harmful, as my research paper and the current literature indicates that there is a correlation between mousy wines and high/toxic levels of biogenic amines (both produced by lactobacilis hilgardii and pedioccocus).
Thanks Sophie, that sounds very logical. I'm (grimly) fascinated by the effect that biogenic amines might have on people, and to what extent they cause headaches or allergic reactions that people then misdiagnose as being caused by alcohol or sulphites.
That said, I am also aware (please correct me if I am wrong) that in the vast majority of cases, the level of biogenic amines in 99% of all wines is less than that in some cured meats and cheeses.
If you read the literature review of my MW paper, you'll see that the studies done on BAs in wine focused exclusively on those made with conventional SO2 regimes. The study I performed on 100 x SB wines with varying SO2 regimes (from zero to 'normal' SO2 additions, and various timings of additions) showed that wines without any SO2 addition, and those with only late added SO2 (i.e. pre-bottling) showed statistically significant, extremely high (and in some cases toxic) levels of BAs. Very little has been done in this area but this study does show that much more attention and focus is required from the wine industry in this area, particularly as many low-fi / zero-add producers promote and market their wines as safer to drink for those with wine intolerances when in fact the exact opposite is likely to be the case for those who are BA-sensitive.
Thank you Sophie. And mea culpa as I had failed to recall your name. I remember your research paper very well, and the flurry of articles that it prompted.
I would love to know more about this, particularly what the symptoms are (let's say for an average consumer with no medical or allergy issues) when a wine with toxic concentrations of BAs is encountered.
And what is your opinion about the related issue with BAs in cured meats and cheeses?
Hi Simon, I think I've only really tasted it once. So, like Bas commented, perhaps I'm not trained enough or blind to it. One thing I heard people say is that it can blow off if you decant the wine, but reading your piece made me think - given the way mousiness develops with oxygen contact, is this just BS / a pipe dream?
Decanting will make it significantly worse, because oxygen allows the taint to develop much faster. So yes, whoever said that is talking BS I'm afraid.
The only thing you can do with a (potentially) mousy wine is keep it as chilled as possible and drink it as fast as possible.
Top drawer insight, as always! The traps are now well and truly set :)
Thanks Ben!
I am, like you susceptible to mouse. I am just back from a trip to Europe and gained a few personal insights / new questions. My colleague, (whose knowledge exceeds my own) looked to me if he thought he noticed something, FWIW. Two things :
The accumulation of acid over the course of the tasting seemed to trigger heightened sensitivity. A few times, I rinsed with water after a string of wines that had coated my mouth and the mouse disappeared. I think this ties to the pH in one's mouth at the moment of tasting. And 2, I've had very few cavities, which I think is related in part to chemistry and pH in my mouth in general. This is speculation, but lower pH = more degradation of enamel = more potential cavities. This is a personal observation only, but one I'll watch for in conversations.
Finally, speaking as an importer the idea that "we can wait for a few months for mouse to resolve" is terribly problematic. I've had more than one estate lose steam in the market because customers and my sales team jump on new arrivals only to be disappointed. Good luck rebuilding momentum in a crowded market when a wine from a producer is off. The reality is that this can kill a producer's chances of succeeding. Opening a delicious, resolved version of the wine 6 months later is rarely enough to turn the tide.
Thanks so much for these super fascinating comments.
I am confused about the acid part, because acidity is kind of the enemy of mousy taint. However, what I have noticed is that some food pairings destroy mousiness and render it totally invisible. I have not yet properly analysed what kind of foods are needed, but I'm sure once again that it's the pH of your mouth/palate that is being affected.
Agree on the acid. I think I am stating this incorrectly - the string of acidic wines is not a build up of acid, but (maybe) more and more saliva that is reducing the acid in my mouth, assuming my mouth does in fact have has a higher pH. The water would reset my mouth to lower levels of acid and a higher ph, perhaps? Whatever the reasons, it was repeatable over and over.
Unfortunately, I am susceptible to it too. It disgusts me, the bottle goes straight down the sink. There is also, for me, repeat offender status - ie there are some producers whose wines keep giving me mousiness and are now excluded from my purchases.
I have been on the other side of the equation (very rarely) and it does disappear, from barrel and bottle but it's guesswork as to when. So, every sympathy for sommeliers
Agreed on all points.
We drink quite a lot of zero added wines but never encountered mousiness (so maybe unaware/unable) i do however recently had w couple of Georgian wines that had such an intense smoky peatiness towards burned plastic. They covered the whole profile of the wines, and made them undrinkable. Do you recognize this? Is it also a fault? Thank you for your informative and fun pieces, love your writing! Bas
Hi Bas, that intense smokiness sounds familiar indeed, but is not (I don't think) mousiness. I have had wines with a profile like this from Kakheti, when the grapes are a bit on the over-ripe side, or maybe yields too high. And six months skin contact in qvevri probably accentuates it as they get quite extracted.
So I guess not a fault per se, but just clumsy winemaking or poor decisions in the vineyard.
Smoky bacon notes can be brettanomyces, and if light, I can enjoy it in a wine. It’s like the smoky meat of a Rhône Syrah, but in reds or whites.
I’m very sensitive to mouse taint and can’t stand it.
I think defenders of it as “part of the style” (or in any way acceptable) are damaging the perception of natural wines.
That said, there are a few ways to mask it, and even enjoy the wine if you must: match the dustiness /mustiness of it with food that has a similar level.
IA Japanese natural wine bar owner also advised lemon juice (on the food, or a swig) to lower the pH in your mouth, although I’m not sure how that affects the overall flavour of the wine. It could be quite a tart pairing.
In a similar way, charcuterie can apparently mask brettanomyces. I start to wonder if that’s why some producers of dirtier wines insist on it in their tasting rooms (something I noticed in Gaillac, France where it’s not common to serve food in tasting rooms like they do in Italy)
I would qualify the statement about mousy wines not being harmful, as my research paper and the current literature indicates that there is a correlation between mousy wines and high/toxic levels of biogenic amines (both produced by lactobacilis hilgardii and pedioccocus).
but great article! I too cannot stand mousiness in wine. It's so preventable and the presence of it obscures sense of place.
Thanks Sophie, that sounds very logical. I'm (grimly) fascinated by the effect that biogenic amines might have on people, and to what extent they cause headaches or allergic reactions that people then misdiagnose as being caused by alcohol or sulphites.
That said, I am also aware (please correct me if I am wrong) that in the vast majority of cases, the level of biogenic amines in 99% of all wines is less than that in some cured meats and cheeses.
Hi Simon,
If you read the literature review of my MW paper, you'll see that the studies done on BAs in wine focused exclusively on those made with conventional SO2 regimes. The study I performed on 100 x SB wines with varying SO2 regimes (from zero to 'normal' SO2 additions, and various timings of additions) showed that wines without any SO2 addition, and those with only late added SO2 (i.e. pre-bottling) showed statistically significant, extremely high (and in some cases toxic) levels of BAs. Very little has been done in this area but this study does show that much more attention and focus is required from the wine industry in this area, particularly as many low-fi / zero-add producers promote and market their wines as safer to drink for those with wine intolerances when in fact the exact opposite is likely to be the case for those who are BA-sensitive.
Thank you Sophie. And mea culpa as I had failed to recall your name. I remember your research paper very well, and the flurry of articles that it prompted.
I would love to know more about this, particularly what the symptoms are (let's say for an average consumer with no medical or allergy issues) when a wine with toxic concentrations of BAs is encountered.
And what is your opinion about the related issue with BAs in cured meats and cheeses?
Hi Simon, I think I've only really tasted it once. So, like Bas commented, perhaps I'm not trained enough or blind to it. One thing I heard people say is that it can blow off if you decant the wine, but reading your piece made me think - given the way mousiness develops with oxygen contact, is this just BS / a pipe dream?
Hi Adam,
Decanting will make it significantly worse, because oxygen allows the taint to develop much faster. So yes, whoever said that is talking BS I'm afraid.
The only thing you can do with a (potentially) mousy wine is keep it as chilled as possible and drink it as fast as possible.
I'm wondering whether they fell into the class of people you mentioned who mistake mousiness for VA or something. Anyway, thanks for replying.