Really enjoyed this article, appreciate your take and efforts to give a balanced take here. I'm a vegan, though I write a wine blog and do not let it get in the way of the choices of wine I drink, and I also make exceptions situationally, like when traveling, so by no means am I the strictest form, but that said I'll give you my take here. Most vegans I know are not eliminating animal products from their diets and other life choices (like wearing leather or buying wool sweaters) because they want to be extremist or preach some radical views. They do it because they want to do the most they can to prevent animal cruelty or exploitation, and in many cases they do it because of its impact on the environment. Those who do aim to drink vegan wine do it in the spirit of those ideas, so as Chris mentioned below about insects in the press, it would be akin to stopping walking because you might step on an ant -- it tends not to factor into the equation for most people. I found it interesting that your biggest gripe with veganism as a concept is related to sustainability when animal agriculture is one of the most environmentally destructive industries and is largely responsible for the decline in biodiversity we're seeing on a large and rapid scale today. Yes, bees are pollinators (I personally don't have an issue with honey or beeswax), but so are most flying insects, and most pollination isn't on account of honey bees. Pollinators en masse are dying off as a direct result of habitat destruction for animal agriculture. Deforestation to clear space for feed crops like soy is driven almost entirely by livestock production (for example, almost all of the crops grown in places like the Amazon where forest is cleared to plant it is fed to livestock, not people), and the majority of water diverted from major fresh water sources in the US (e.g., the Colorado river, which is rapidly running dry) is also used for animal agriculture, not human food crops. So it is very difficult to argue that veganism isn't inherently more sustainable as a whole. It's not black and white, but on the issue of sustainability there is a very clear winner.
I didn't spend much time on my own reasoning/arguments (not the main focus of the article), but I must make a clear distinction between industrialised food production - what you describe - and the responsible, small-scale use of animals in closed-circle production such as a biodynamic farm or winery.
Many of the compost preps would be problematic for vegans, as well:
502 (stag's bladder).
503 (cow intestine)
504 (nettle prep would be ok)
505 (cow skull - so no oak bark)
506 (mesentery)
507 (valerian would be ok)
508 (equisetum would be ok)
I do know that in some countries, during mad cow outbreaks, the "sheaths" were not legal to use, so preparations were made in ways that probably would have passed muster with vegans.
I do know some vegan farmers and I do not think they would use animal manures, but that does not mean that they are crappy farmers, as rotational cover cropping in no-till organic systems is often an excellent way to farm.
I have no issue with vegans per se, but I can't really stand cashew cheese, so it probably is not for me.
Edit: this "And we didn’t even mention the more nebulous term ‘plant-based’" reminded me that the same goes for the terms "natural" (food labelling, in particular) and "regenerative," which now seems to apply to agribusiness as well!
Sorry to say, no wine can be 100% vegan. When the grapes are crushed a winery cannot guarantee earwigs, leaf hoppers, grasshoppers, snails, ladybugs or other insects and small animals don’t end up in the press, obviously this is reduced with a manual harvest, but impossible to completely eliminate.
I have never heard that vegans have a problem with coincidental stuff like this. As Karen Spinner said multiple times in our conversation, it is all about "possible and practicable" attempts to limit any cruelty to animals.
So I would disagree with your point that there cannot be a vegan wine. By the Vegan Society's own definition, yes there can,
Nice, balanced take on a heated subject. Love the idea of "ducks wandering through the vineyard." Yep, those cattle and sheep just "wandered" there too!
Great discussion, Simon, and I love how the comments reflect the many other issues that we might look at in addition to animal cruelty, like worker treatment, the distinction between industrial meat production and the responsible inclusion of biodiversity including animals in a holistic farming system. I used to put that "V" for vegan on the wines that I produced, but stopped after working in vineyards. As someone who has a soft spot for animals that often get referred to as "pests" - like voles, ground squirrels, gophers, rats, mice, and the entire realm of rodents really - I can say it is the extremely rare exception in wine or any other kind of farming that is able to produce a crop without disrupting the habitats, and often killing, many animals of some kind. If we're honest, I think the choice isn't between veganism and omnivorous diets, its between direct and indirect slaughter of many forms of life in order to produce our food and wine. I say this as someone who supports plant-focused diets both for health and ecological reasons. But I think it's important that we understand that we don't get away from the moral implications of killing animals even by being strict vegans.
Another point I'd bring up: when you come to appreciate plants as sentient beings, veganism begins to seem to make arbitrary distinctions between what really is just the continuum of life in various forms. I love and value my green relatives as much as my animal and bird relatives, and I don't see a moral difference in mistreating or eating one over the other. With this perspective, I think it's about our attitude and gratitude and the respect and love with which we approach the reality that life feeds on life, that we are all constantly transforming the energy of life into different forms. A great book about this is Nourishment by Fred Provenza.
If a friend recommends a wine to me, I drink it and say thank you. I might look at the year on the bottle and smile but I do not investigate whether the animals or the labourers are well treated.
I would agree if someone else bought the bottle. If I buy it myself then I would like some assurances that it is cruelty-free. But I have a different opinion than strict vegans on the use of animals as part of a sustainable and humane farming system.
Well, in the latter case of how workers are treated, I'd say poor working conditions would be a deal breaker. This should apply to everything: textiles, food, wine, etc. Has nothing really to do veganism, but it is important.
Really enjoyed this article, appreciate your take and efforts to give a balanced take here. I'm a vegan, though I write a wine blog and do not let it get in the way of the choices of wine I drink, and I also make exceptions situationally, like when traveling, so by no means am I the strictest form, but that said I'll give you my take here. Most vegans I know are not eliminating animal products from their diets and other life choices (like wearing leather or buying wool sweaters) because they want to be extremist or preach some radical views. They do it because they want to do the most they can to prevent animal cruelty or exploitation, and in many cases they do it because of its impact on the environment. Those who do aim to drink vegan wine do it in the spirit of those ideas, so as Chris mentioned below about insects in the press, it would be akin to stopping walking because you might step on an ant -- it tends not to factor into the equation for most people. I found it interesting that your biggest gripe with veganism as a concept is related to sustainability when animal agriculture is one of the most environmentally destructive industries and is largely responsible for the decline in biodiversity we're seeing on a large and rapid scale today. Yes, bees are pollinators (I personally don't have an issue with honey or beeswax), but so are most flying insects, and most pollination isn't on account of honey bees. Pollinators en masse are dying off as a direct result of habitat destruction for animal agriculture. Deforestation to clear space for feed crops like soy is driven almost entirely by livestock production (for example, almost all of the crops grown in places like the Amazon where forest is cleared to plant it is fed to livestock, not people), and the majority of water diverted from major fresh water sources in the US (e.g., the Colorado river, which is rapidly running dry) is also used for animal agriculture, not human food crops. So it is very difficult to argue that veganism isn't inherently more sustainable as a whole. It's not black and white, but on the issue of sustainability there is a very clear winner.
Thanks Isaac - great comment!
I didn't spend much time on my own reasoning/arguments (not the main focus of the article), but I must make a clear distinction between industrialised food production - what you describe - and the responsible, small-scale use of animals in closed-circle production such as a biodynamic farm or winery.
They are totally missing out on that Nibiru !
Many of the compost preps would be problematic for vegans, as well:
502 (stag's bladder).
503 (cow intestine)
504 (nettle prep would be ok)
505 (cow skull - so no oak bark)
506 (mesentery)
507 (valerian would be ok)
508 (equisetum would be ok)
I do know that in some countries, during mad cow outbreaks, the "sheaths" were not legal to use, so preparations were made in ways that probably would have passed muster with vegans.
I do know some vegan farmers and I do not think they would use animal manures, but that does not mean that they are crappy farmers, as rotational cover cropping in no-till organic systems is often an excellent way to farm.
I have no issue with vegans per se, but I can't really stand cashew cheese, so it probably is not for me.
Edit: this "And we didn’t even mention the more nebulous term ‘plant-based’" reminded me that the same goes for the terms "natural" (food labelling, in particular) and "regenerative," which now seems to apply to agribusiness as well!
Sorry to say, no wine can be 100% vegan. When the grapes are crushed a winery cannot guarantee earwigs, leaf hoppers, grasshoppers, snails, ladybugs or other insects and small animals don’t end up in the press, obviously this is reduced with a manual harvest, but impossible to completely eliminate.
I have never heard that vegans have a problem with coincidental stuff like this. As Karen Spinner said multiple times in our conversation, it is all about "possible and practicable" attempts to limit any cruelty to animals.
So I would disagree with your point that there cannot be a vegan wine. By the Vegan Society's own definition, yes there can,
Exactly that Chris. Twelve harvests done and though we work tirelessly on the sorting table there's no way some insects don't get through.
Nice, balanced take on a heated subject. Love the idea of "ducks wandering through the vineyard." Yep, those cattle and sheep just "wandered" there too!
That was the one part where TVS didn't have a clear answer!
Great discussion, Simon, and I love how the comments reflect the many other issues that we might look at in addition to animal cruelty, like worker treatment, the distinction between industrial meat production and the responsible inclusion of biodiversity including animals in a holistic farming system. I used to put that "V" for vegan on the wines that I produced, but stopped after working in vineyards. As someone who has a soft spot for animals that often get referred to as "pests" - like voles, ground squirrels, gophers, rats, mice, and the entire realm of rodents really - I can say it is the extremely rare exception in wine or any other kind of farming that is able to produce a crop without disrupting the habitats, and often killing, many animals of some kind. If we're honest, I think the choice isn't between veganism and omnivorous diets, its between direct and indirect slaughter of many forms of life in order to produce our food and wine. I say this as someone who supports plant-focused diets both for health and ecological reasons. But I think it's important that we understand that we don't get away from the moral implications of killing animals even by being strict vegans.
Another point I'd bring up: when you come to appreciate plants as sentient beings, veganism begins to seem to make arbitrary distinctions between what really is just the continuum of life in various forms. I love and value my green relatives as much as my animal and bird relatives, and I don't see a moral difference in mistreating or eating one over the other. With this perspective, I think it's about our attitude and gratitude and the respect and love with which we approach the reality that life feeds on life, that we are all constantly transforming the energy of life into different forms. A great book about this is Nourishment by Fred Provenza.
BD502 is even better, that requires stag bladders, for which, yes, they have to die 🤣
If a friend recommends a wine to me, I drink it and say thank you. I might look at the year on the bottle and smile but I do not investigate whether the animals or the labourers are well treated.
I would agree if someone else bought the bottle. If I buy it myself then I would like some assurances that it is cruelty-free. But I have a different opinion than strict vegans on the use of animals as part of a sustainable and humane farming system.
Well, in the latter case of how workers are treated, I'd say poor working conditions would be a deal breaker. This should apply to everything: textiles, food, wine, etc. Has nothing really to do veganism, but it is important.