Great discussion, Simon, and I love how the comments reflect the many other issues that we might look at in addition to animal cruelty, like worker treatment, the distinction between industrial meat production and the responsible inclusion of biodiversity including animals in a holistic farming system. I used to put that "V" for vegan on the wines that I produced, but stopped after working in vineyards. As someone who has a soft spot for animals that often get referred to as "pests" - like voles, ground squirrels, gophers, rats, mice, and the entire realm of rodents really - I can say it is the extremely rare exception in wine or any other kind of farming that is able to produce a crop without disrupting the habitats, and often killing, many animals of some kind. If we're honest, I think the choice isn't between veganism and omnivorous diets, its between direct and indirect slaughter of many forms of life in order to produce our food and wine. I say this as someone who supports plant-focused diets both for health and ecological reasons. But I think it's important that we understand that we don't get away from the moral implications of killing animals even by being strict vegans.
Another point I'd bring up: when you come to appreciate plants as sentient beings, veganism begins to seem to make arbitrary distinctions between what really is just the continuum of life in various forms. I love and value my green relatives as much as my animal and bird relatives, and I don't see a moral difference in mistreating or eating one over the other. With this perspective, I think it's about our attitude and gratitude and the respect and love with which we approach the reality that life feeds on life, that we are all constantly transforming the energy of life into different forms. A great book about this is Nourishment by Fred Provenza.
This has cropped up multiple times in this comment thread! But vegans don't have a problem with stuff like this that is unpreventable. At least, that was the Vegan Society's position.
Really enjoyed this article, appreciate your take and efforts to give a balanced take here. I'm a vegan, though I write a wine blog and do not let it get in the way of the choices of wine I drink, and I also make exceptions situationally, like when traveling, so by no means am I the strictest form, but that said I'll give you my take here. Most vegans I know are not eliminating animal products from their diets and other life choices (like wearing leather or buying wool sweaters) because they want to be extremist or preach some radical views. They do it because they want to do the most they can to prevent animal cruelty or exploitation, and in many cases they do it because of its impact on the environment. Those who do aim to drink vegan wine do it in the spirit of those ideas, so as Chris mentioned below about insects in the press, it would be akin to stopping walking because you might step on an ant -- it tends not to factor into the equation for most people. I found it interesting that your biggest gripe with veganism as a concept is related to sustainability when animal agriculture is one of the most environmentally destructive industries and is largely responsible for the decline in biodiversity we're seeing on a large and rapid scale today. Yes, bees are pollinators (I personally don't have an issue with honey or beeswax), but so are most flying insects, and most pollination isn't on account of honey bees. Pollinators en masse are dying off as a direct result of habitat destruction for animal agriculture. Deforestation to clear space for feed crops like soy is driven almost entirely by livestock production (for example, almost all of the crops grown in places like the Amazon where forest is cleared to plant it is fed to livestock, not people), and the majority of water diverted from major fresh water sources in the US (e.g., the Colorado river, which is rapidly running dry) is also used for animal agriculture, not human food crops. So it is very difficult to argue that veganism isn't inherently more sustainable as a whole. It's not black and white, but on the issue of sustainability there is a very clear winner.
I didn't spend much time on my own reasoning/arguments (not the main focus of the article), but I must make a clear distinction between industrialised food production - what you describe - and the responsible, small-scale use of animals in closed-circle production such as a biodynamic farm or winery.
Totally, makes sense. I read your statement about being uncomfortable with veganism as a concept as expressing concern that the idea of veganism is at odds with sustainable traditions, whereas really I think most people are more interested in the spirit of the idea (to do something good, whatever their reason) rather than to set hard rules that disregard context. Certainly some people take a more binary approach, but in my experience most are critical thinkers and unfortunately there’s a conception that “veganism” is driven by virtue signaling or blind ideology rather than consideration of scenarios that contradict the underlying reasons for their choices. I don’t think that was the intention of your article at all and clearly you’ve done a lot of work to avoid injecting bias into the article, just wanted to give you one vegan’s thoughts on the matter.
Because of this topic I realized that using of DIAM ORIGIN corks, which are suitable in organic production because they are re-composed using bee's wax, is non-vegan! And there are so many of wineries (including mine) that are using it.
Ha, interesting! I knew they had switched from synthetic glue but not what they are now using. And yes I think it's stuff like this which makes a lot of these arguments break down.
Sorry to say, no wine can be 100% vegan. When the grapes are crushed a winery cannot guarantee earwigs, leaf hoppers, grasshoppers, snails, ladybugs or other insects and small animals don’t end up in the press, obviously this is reduced with a manual harvest, but impossible to completely eliminate.
I have never heard that vegans have a problem with coincidental stuff like this. As Karen Spinner said multiple times in our conversation, it is all about "possible and practicable" attempts to limit any cruelty to animals.
So I would disagree with your point that there cannot be a vegan wine. By the Vegan Society's own definition, yes there can,
There are definitions and beliefs. Speak with a strict vegan and tell them there is more than a 0% chance that frogs, snails and other animals may have made it into the press and see how they react.
Many of the compost preps would be problematic for vegans, as well:
502 (stag's bladder).
503 (cow intestine)
504 (nettle prep would be ok)
505 (cow skull - so no oak bark)
506 (mesentery)
507 (valerian would be ok)
508 (equisetum would be ok)
I do know that in some countries, during mad cow outbreaks, the "sheaths" were not legal to use, so preparations were made in ways that probably would have passed muster with vegans.
I do know some vegan farmers and I do not think they would use animal manures, but that does not mean that they are crappy farmers, as rotational cover cropping in no-till organic systems is often an excellent way to farm.
I have no issue with vegans per se, but I can't really stand cashew cheese, so it probably is not for me.
Edit: this "And we didn’t even mention the more nebulous term ‘plant-based’" reminded me that the same goes for the terms "natural" (food labelling, in particular) and "regenerative," which now seems to apply to agribusiness as well!
"I don’t think the vegan society would find that problematic. They talk about what is “possible and practicable” and what is necessary or unnecessary."
I can think of two cases where people might go beyond that: some vegetarian Buddhist groups and for different reasons, people who follow a particularly stringent form of Kosher (see: https://www.star-k.org/checking ), inspecting produce carefully and in the latter case, even rejecting it.
Nice, balanced take on a heated subject. Love the idea of "ducks wandering through the vineyard." Yep, those cattle and sheep just "wandered" there too!
Simon, it is so obvious to me that "Wine Vegan certification" was invented in some office in a big city. Obviously not by folk who actually live on a farm. Let me state it very clearly: there is no such thing as vegan wine. Even a very careful vintner is going to have some insect parts in a vat full of freshly picked grapes. Yes, spiders, ants, flies and even the occasional worm... and worse. Get over it, there is animal protein in your wine, and (BTW) in your Broccoli and Cauliflower too. Just saying. I am all for individualism and choosing your own belief system, veganism doesn't bother me a bit. Certification? that's laughable.
I have been approached by a Vegan wine certification group willing to take my money to “allow” me to label my wines as vegan. I laughed them off the phone!
Same here, a few years ago. Just to be clear - I have nothing against Vegans or, for the matter, folk who keep kosher or who are Pastafarians. But any claim that a certification makes a product better because you paid a fee is fair game to my comedy routine.....
Feels like another chapter in the 21st-century madness we're all living through.
Obviously, any reasonable person is against animal cruelty. But in my view, the vegan activists mentioned in this piece are seriously going overboard.
There's a difference between actual animal abuse — like the traveling circuses of the late 20th century — and bees living on a farm whose byproducts are later used for wax capsules.
This just feels like excess for the sake of excess.
Honestly, I have a hard time believing that truffle-hunting dogs are somehow suffering during the hunt. Though I'll admit I'm no expert on that one)
I wonder if Vegans believe their fruit is acceptable. Almost all tree fruit and nuts) are pollinated by bees- often brought to the orchard to increase pollination rates. Are these bees in bondage?
Well, in the latter case of how workers are treated, I'd say poor working conditions would be a deal breaker. This should apply to everything: textiles, food, wine, etc. Has nothing really to do with veganism, but it is important.
Um, assuming you are not a biodynamic farmer, so to clarify: 505 only goes into the compost pile (and the bark is used, not the skull). Not in wine, unless you mean uptake from the vine roots?
As far as 502 goes, most prep makers get them from deer hunters who really cannot get rid of them fast enough. 😄
Yes I understand, it was a joke, of course this is all in the phase of cultivation and not vinification. 😉
I feel hugely inspired by biodynamic wine makers, and I know and visited many.
Sometimes I think to feel a “pattern of energetics” in these wines that gives me a higher level of sensory joy and excitement. Therefore I was joking, kind of from a scientific point of view, to feel the difference in wines that are made of grapes cultivated with more than 500, 501, and the more rare 502.
Don't take my initial comment too serious, but I do admit curiosity is triggered 🙂
Great discussion, Simon, and I love how the comments reflect the many other issues that we might look at in addition to animal cruelty, like worker treatment, the distinction between industrial meat production and the responsible inclusion of biodiversity including animals in a holistic farming system. I used to put that "V" for vegan on the wines that I produced, but stopped after working in vineyards. As someone who has a soft spot for animals that often get referred to as "pests" - like voles, ground squirrels, gophers, rats, mice, and the entire realm of rodents really - I can say it is the extremely rare exception in wine or any other kind of farming that is able to produce a crop without disrupting the habitats, and often killing, many animals of some kind. If we're honest, I think the choice isn't between veganism and omnivorous diets, its between direct and indirect slaughter of many forms of life in order to produce our food and wine. I say this as someone who supports plant-focused diets both for health and ecological reasons. But I think it's important that we understand that we don't get away from the moral implications of killing animals even by being strict vegans.
Another point I'd bring up: when you come to appreciate plants as sentient beings, veganism begins to seem to make arbitrary distinctions between what really is just the continuum of life in various forms. I love and value my green relatives as much as my animal and bird relatives, and I don't see a moral difference in mistreating or eating one over the other. With this perspective, I think it's about our attitude and gratitude and the respect and love with which we approach the reality that life feeds on life, that we are all constantly transforming the energy of life into different forms. A great book about this is Nourishment by Fred Provenza.
Heartily agree, these are sentiments I can 100% get behind.
Life in all its forms is precious.
This has cropped up multiple times in this comment thread! But vegans don't have a problem with stuff like this that is unpreventable. At least, that was the Vegan Society's position.
They are not Jain buddhists!
Really enjoyed this article, appreciate your take and efforts to give a balanced take here. I'm a vegan, though I write a wine blog and do not let it get in the way of the choices of wine I drink, and I also make exceptions situationally, like when traveling, so by no means am I the strictest form, but that said I'll give you my take here. Most vegans I know are not eliminating animal products from their diets and other life choices (like wearing leather or buying wool sweaters) because they want to be extremist or preach some radical views. They do it because they want to do the most they can to prevent animal cruelty or exploitation, and in many cases they do it because of its impact on the environment. Those who do aim to drink vegan wine do it in the spirit of those ideas, so as Chris mentioned below about insects in the press, it would be akin to stopping walking because you might step on an ant -- it tends not to factor into the equation for most people. I found it interesting that your biggest gripe with veganism as a concept is related to sustainability when animal agriculture is one of the most environmentally destructive industries and is largely responsible for the decline in biodiversity we're seeing on a large and rapid scale today. Yes, bees are pollinators (I personally don't have an issue with honey or beeswax), but so are most flying insects, and most pollination isn't on account of honey bees. Pollinators en masse are dying off as a direct result of habitat destruction for animal agriculture. Deforestation to clear space for feed crops like soy is driven almost entirely by livestock production (for example, almost all of the crops grown in places like the Amazon where forest is cleared to plant it is fed to livestock, not people), and the majority of water diverted from major fresh water sources in the US (e.g., the Colorado river, which is rapidly running dry) is also used for animal agriculture, not human food crops. So it is very difficult to argue that veganism isn't inherently more sustainable as a whole. It's not black and white, but on the issue of sustainability there is a very clear winner.
Thanks Isaac - great comment!
I didn't spend much time on my own reasoning/arguments (not the main focus of the article), but I must make a clear distinction between industrialised food production - what you describe - and the responsible, small-scale use of animals in closed-circle production such as a biodynamic farm or winery.
Totally, makes sense. I read your statement about being uncomfortable with veganism as a concept as expressing concern that the idea of veganism is at odds with sustainable traditions, whereas really I think most people are more interested in the spirit of the idea (to do something good, whatever their reason) rather than to set hard rules that disregard context. Certainly some people take a more binary approach, but in my experience most are critical thinkers and unfortunately there’s a conception that “veganism” is driven by virtue signaling or blind ideology rather than consideration of scenarios that contradict the underlying reasons for their choices. I don’t think that was the intention of your article at all and clearly you’ve done a lot of work to avoid injecting bias into the article, just wanted to give you one vegan’s thoughts on the matter.
Excellent and article Simon, as always, on a subject that is not often tackled. It would be good to see it on Bluesky 😉
Done!
Because of this topic I realized that using of DIAM ORIGIN corks, which are suitable in organic production because they are re-composed using bee's wax, is non-vegan! And there are so many of wineries (including mine) that are using it.
Ha, interesting! I knew they had switched from synthetic glue but not what they are now using. And yes I think it's stuff like this which makes a lot of these arguments break down.
This Origin corks exist for like last 6-7 years. Thanks once again for great article!
Sorry to say, no wine can be 100% vegan. When the grapes are crushed a winery cannot guarantee earwigs, leaf hoppers, grasshoppers, snails, ladybugs or other insects and small animals don’t end up in the press, obviously this is reduced with a manual harvest, but impossible to completely eliminate.
I have never heard that vegans have a problem with coincidental stuff like this. As Karen Spinner said multiple times in our conversation, it is all about "possible and practicable" attempts to limit any cruelty to animals.
So I would disagree with your point that there cannot be a vegan wine. By the Vegan Society's own definition, yes there can,
There are definitions and beliefs. Speak with a strict vegan and tell them there is more than a 0% chance that frogs, snails and other animals may have made it into the press and see how they react.
Exactly that Chris. Twelve harvests done and though we work tirelessly on the sorting table there's no way some insects don't get through.
They are totally missing out on that Nibiru !
Many of the compost preps would be problematic for vegans, as well:
502 (stag's bladder).
503 (cow intestine)
504 (nettle prep would be ok)
505 (cow skull - so no oak bark)
506 (mesentery)
507 (valerian would be ok)
508 (equisetum would be ok)
I do know that in some countries, during mad cow outbreaks, the "sheaths" were not legal to use, so preparations were made in ways that probably would have passed muster with vegans.
I do know some vegan farmers and I do not think they would use animal manures, but that does not mean that they are crappy farmers, as rotational cover cropping in no-till organic systems is often an excellent way to farm.
I have no issue with vegans per se, but I can't really stand cashew cheese, so it probably is not for me.
Edit: this "And we didn’t even mention the more nebulous term ‘plant-based’" reminded me that the same goes for the terms "natural" (food labelling, in particular) and "regenerative," which now seems to apply to agribusiness as well!
Well you just precied my next article ;-)
My fun comment to Vegans is that they may no longer eat figs. The wasp that pollinates the figs stays stuck inside and is absorbed into the fruit.
I don’t think the vegan society would find that problematic. They talk about what is “possible and practicable” and what is necessary or unecessary.
I had a detailed conversation with Karen Spinner about pollination. TGS recognises this is necessary for most plants and fruits that humans consume.
"I don’t think the vegan society would find that problematic. They talk about what is “possible and practicable” and what is necessary or unnecessary."
I can think of two cases where people might go beyond that: some vegetarian Buddhist groups and for different reasons, people who follow a particularly stringent form of Kosher (see: https://www.star-k.org/checking ), inspecting produce carefully and in the latter case, even rejecting it.
Sure, but neither of these has anything to do with veganism, which is what is under discussion here.
True. It *is* about eating animals, though somewhat tangential.
Nice, balanced take on a heated subject. Love the idea of "ducks wandering through the vineyard." Yep, those cattle and sheep just "wandered" there too!
That was the one part where TVS didn't have a clear answer!
Simon, it is so obvious to me that "Wine Vegan certification" was invented in some office in a big city. Obviously not by folk who actually live on a farm. Let me state it very clearly: there is no such thing as vegan wine. Even a very careful vintner is going to have some insect parts in a vat full of freshly picked grapes. Yes, spiders, ants, flies and even the occasional worm... and worse. Get over it, there is animal protein in your wine, and (BTW) in your Broccoli and Cauliflower too. Just saying. I am all for individualism and choosing your own belief system, veganism doesn't bother me a bit. Certification? that's laughable.
I have been approached by a Vegan wine certification group willing to take my money to “allow” me to label my wines as vegan. I laughed them off the phone!
I would be interested to know their name and what their specific definition of vegan wine is?
Same here, a few years ago. Just to be clear - I have nothing against Vegans or, for the matter, folk who keep kosher or who are Pastafarians. But any claim that a certification makes a product better because you paid a fee is fair game to my comedy routine.....
What about the insects " accidentally" harvested with the grapes? I,ve never Seen a winemaker Picking any Out during the selection Process...🤷
Feels like another chapter in the 21st-century madness we're all living through.
Obviously, any reasonable person is against animal cruelty. But in my view, the vegan activists mentioned in this piece are seriously going overboard.
There's a difference between actual animal abuse — like the traveling circuses of the late 20th century — and bees living on a farm whose byproducts are later used for wax capsules.
This just feels like excess for the sake of excess.
Honestly, I have a hard time believing that truffle-hunting dogs are somehow suffering during the hunt. Though I'll admit I'm no expert on that one)
I wonder if Vegans believe their fruit is acceptable. Almost all tree fruit and nuts) are pollinated by bees- often brought to the orchard to increase pollination rates. Are these bees in bondage?
Not according to the vegan society. They accept that pollination is necessary for most fruit and veg eaten by humans!
Well, in the latter case of how workers are treated, I'd say poor working conditions would be a deal breaker. This should apply to everything: textiles, food, wine, etc. Has nothing really to do with veganism, but it is important.
BD502 is even better, that requires stag bladders, for which, yes, they have to die 🤣
Absolutely, as mentioned by another commenter in this thread!
Ah that's an interesting comment, I didn't see it before. Curious now about the vibes in wines made with BD505 😆💀
Um, assuming you are not a biodynamic farmer, so to clarify: 505 only goes into the compost pile (and the bark is used, not the skull). Not in wine, unless you mean uptake from the vine roots?
As far as 502 goes, most prep makers get them from deer hunters who really cannot get rid of them fast enough. 😄
Yes I understand, it was a joke, of course this is all in the phase of cultivation and not vinification. 😉
I feel hugely inspired by biodynamic wine makers, and I know and visited many.
Sometimes I think to feel a “pattern of energetics” in these wines that gives me a higher level of sensory joy and excitement. Therefore I was joking, kind of from a scientific point of view, to feel the difference in wines that are made of grapes cultivated with more than 500, 501, and the more rare 502.
Don't take my initial comment too serious, but I do admit curiosity is triggered 🙂