I love both the podcast and your article, Simon. Just recently in the Dutch magazine Wijn en Wijngaard, I published an historical view on grape ales: the blend of beer and something grapey. To me, this is a going back to the origin of fermented beverages, wherein grains, grapes, other fruits, botanicals, herbs, where all mixed to get a good drink. The works of Patrick Govern are my reference for this.
Thank you Mariella, that sounds like a very interesting article. I will try to track it down!
And yes, I think this is what most people forget or are ignorant of - that we really have narrowed our definition of wine quite significantly from how it was in the past.
I was talking to Tim Phillips from Charlie Herring wines in Hampshire and he said that if you're an English winemaker and you're not making cider then you are missing a trick. He compared the thousands of hours of attention vines need with the minutes of attention an apple tree needs.
Makes perfect sense - although I heard that commercial apple orchards need to be sprayed 20-30 times a year (ask any organic wine grower with apple orchards close by, and they always complain about this).
I’m based in Michigan where apples, PIWIs, and innovation are being widely embraced to further the identity of the wine culture here. I wrote about one producer in Michigan recently who has seamlessly incorporated hybrids and ciders into a preexisting vinifera lineup. If you haven’t paid attention to Michigan wine yet, the time has come. I’m about to post a lil something about the incredible traditional method apple/grape wine I had last week.
Thank you Caroline, I was just reading that article! I don't think I tasted anything from Michigan just yet, but am certainly familiar with the amazing work being done by people like Deidre Heekin (La Garagista) in Vermont or American Wine Project in Wisconsin.
I concentrated mainly on Europe in this piece, partly because I wanted to flesh out the landscape to add to Adam Huss's more US-centric analysis.
I look forward to hearing more about what's going on in your corner of the world!
I enjoy your take thoroughly! I don’t think Michigan wine makes it further than New York City at this point, but I see that changing. Next time I pass through Amsterdam I’ll have to bring a bottle.
I've seen the term "co-ferments" used on restaurant menus to try and carve out a category for these types of beverages - raspberry lambics sit next to pear and cherry ciders, among other things. But I don't think that's generally consumer-friendly. I try and have a progressive outlook on topics like this and ultimately if it elevates the category and creates better beverages overall, I think everything is fair game. Many of the same discussions are happening in the tea world in parallel, and the opinions can be fiery! Loved the podcast, BTW. I'll certainly listen to more of it.
Hard to say - fermented beverages, perhaps? It doesn't roll off the tongue well. I certainly don't get upset when people label something as blueberry wine, but i would be confused if someone listed apple wine on a menu and not cider, since that seems to be the generally accepted term for that category. I'd be intrigued by a menu that listed separate categories: fruit ferments (wine, cider, tepache, etc), grain ferments (beer, sake, tongba, etc), and misc ferments (kombucha, pulque, kvass, etc).
Ryan Opaz, you sure know how to stir the lagar! That blind tasting of Oregon fruit based wines, followed by Minnesota’s finest examples using vitus riparia hybrids in your folks kitchen was an eye opening and mind expanding experience. Game changer, thanks again for that. There are many thought provoking concepts coming from this potential paradigm shift. At the end of the day, if it tastes good, it’s “base fermentable” doesn’t matter.
I am publishing an interview with Iago I did a few months ago regarding climate change and winemakers embracing change. I think it is certainly much harder in old, traditional wine cultures where wine is an identity and the cling to the old. But if they don't innovate with things like PIWIs or training, they won't have wine. I'm going to check out that podcast.
If someone wants to make "wine" from apples, pears or whatever it's fine, just don't call it wine. For the simple reason, it will confuse consumers. Many already, including my parents, think that when someone says, "I taste citrus in this Grüner Veltliner", assume that the wine was made with lemons. If wine suddenly starts being made with other fruits the consumers will revolt. We've taken so much effort and time to educate consumers about wine, and we aren't done yet, but if we start adding more fruits to wine, consumers are just going to turn to other beverage -- confusion and stress shouldn't be on the menu at a restaurant.
You're making the assumption that diversifying a category will hurt the category, but I'm not sure that's the case.
First, if you look back in history, wine has often been made from a blend of grapes with other fruits, herbs or additives (did you listen to the bit in Adam's podcast that talks about China's wine culture from the past?). The example that I quote in this article (Vino di Vitiole) is just one such tradition.
Second, look at beer. There are many traditional styles of beer, such as Oude Geuze (which is protected), that are mostly made without the addition of fruit. But there are plenty where brewers do add fruit and experiment. I don't see that this causes any more or less confusion amongst consumers than we already see in wine. It just allows for a greater range of flavours and products, something that consumers readily embrace. I also don't see, for example, that the fine old tradition of Oude Geuze has been in any way compromised by there being other examples of Geuze on the market that have fruit added. There is room for both.
To be clear, I believe in protecting traditional categories, and there will always be connoisseurs who seek out single vineyard Grüner Veltliner, Chardonnay or whatever. But this feeling that wine is a fortress that needs to be protected from all comers is a problem.
In my humble 😉 opinion your extensive knowledge and I am guessing, decades of experience, on this topic is a bias. I was in the tech industry for 25 years, and I only entered the wine industry a few years ago. I has the same issue, I assumed everyone knew about transistors, cloud computing and how data is stored in 0s and 1s. The circle of people I am typically around have little to no understanding of how wine is made. When you talk about how wine was made in China and Oude Geuze beer you illustrate my point you are not the average consumer. The average consumer is still trying to understand that “dry wine” means not sweet. That red wine is red from the grape skins, in most varieties. Consumers still don’t understand natural vs organic vs biodynamic. When they can sort this all out I am all for adding other fruits to wine. 😀
I think the bigger issue is that traditional wine knowledge is outdated. Wine, scientifically, is any fruit fermented. By EU law it's any vitis vinifera grape. I don't think consumers have any trouble finding something fun to drink and enjoying it, if we would only stop telling them that they need to understand it first.
Wine is a liquid with flavor...and right now the reductionist attitude of the past has led to huge wine shops with lots of similar drinks with different labels.
Where is the harm if a person accidentaly picks up a wine fermented with cantelope and enjoys it? What's the harm if they are confused between Prosecco or Cider? Maybe Prosecco will have an issue and need to work on branding better, but the consumer can just love it for what it is. I honestly don't see how any consumer is harmed.
Spoiler alert: Lots of my friends have ZERO idea how wine is made, but they still like it! Buy it, Drink it, and enjoy life! :)
As a winemaker and a viticulture/oenology student I am enjoying this discussion, so thanks. The harm is that as a consumer you should know exactly what you are buying, particularly if you are paying a premium price. Yes, your friends don't know how wine is made, but I guess at a minimum they know it's made from fermented grapes and not fermented grapes and cherries and pears -- and if it is made from other fruits it should be clearly started. Similar to how we know that cider is made from apples and not pumpkins. This is exactly why the EU has mandated ingredient labels starting this year for wine bottles -- to help consumers and this would address the issue if more wines are fermented with different fruits. Putting wine aside, there was a similar discussion about what can be called "milk". In the US, the FDA states that all milk alternatives, whether it's oat milk, hemp milk, or even coconut milk, can in fact be called “milk.” The EU doesn't see it that way, these products are called "drink". I would be happy to try wine fermented with cantaloupe, but if the bottles says "Burgundy" and "vin", then I expect an oak aged Chardonnay and not something that tastes like a cantaloupe daiquiri. : )
Yes no one is saying to pull the wool over your eyes...call a spade a spade, but why not have canteloupe wine...I'm not asking for wines made from pricklypear to not be called that, just that they can and should sit next to other wines from other things like, grapes for instance.
I love both the podcast and your article, Simon. Just recently in the Dutch magazine Wijn en Wijngaard, I published an historical view on grape ales: the blend of beer and something grapey. To me, this is a going back to the origin of fermented beverages, wherein grains, grapes, other fruits, botanicals, herbs, where all mixed to get a good drink. The works of Patrick Govern are my reference for this.
Thank you Mariella, that sounds like a very interesting article. I will try to track it down!
And yes, I think this is what most people forget or are ignorant of - that we really have narrowed our definition of wine quite significantly from how it was in the past.
I was talking to Tim Phillips from Charlie Herring wines in Hampshire and he said that if you're an English winemaker and you're not making cider then you are missing a trick. He compared the thousands of hours of attention vines need with the minutes of attention an apple tree needs.
Makes perfect sense - although I heard that commercial apple orchards need to be sprayed 20-30 times a year (ask any organic wine grower with apple orchards close by, and they always complain about this).
I’m based in Michigan where apples, PIWIs, and innovation are being widely embraced to further the identity of the wine culture here. I wrote about one producer in Michigan recently who has seamlessly incorporated hybrids and ciders into a preexisting vinifera lineup. If you haven’t paid attention to Michigan wine yet, the time has come. I’m about to post a lil something about the incredible traditional method apple/grape wine I had last week.
Thank you Caroline, I was just reading that article! I don't think I tasted anything from Michigan just yet, but am certainly familiar with the amazing work being done by people like Deidre Heekin (La Garagista) in Vermont or American Wine Project in Wisconsin.
I concentrated mainly on Europe in this piece, partly because I wanted to flesh out the landscape to add to Adam Huss's more US-centric analysis.
I look forward to hearing more about what's going on in your corner of the world!
I enjoy your take thoroughly! I don’t think Michigan wine makes it further than New York City at this point, but I see that changing. Next time I pass through Amsterdam I’ll have to bring a bottle.
I've seen the term "co-ferments" used on restaurant menus to try and carve out a category for these types of beverages - raspberry lambics sit next to pear and cherry ciders, among other things. But I don't think that's generally consumer-friendly. I try and have a progressive outlook on topics like this and ultimately if it elevates the category and creates better beverages overall, I think everything is fair game. Many of the same discussions are happening in the tea world in parallel, and the opinions can be fiery! Loved the podcast, BTW. I'll certainly listen to more of it.
What term works best for you, to encompass this hybrid category?
Hard to say - fermented beverages, perhaps? It doesn't roll off the tongue well. I certainly don't get upset when people label something as blueberry wine, but i would be confused if someone listed apple wine on a menu and not cider, since that seems to be the generally accepted term for that category. I'd be intrigued by a menu that listed separate categories: fruit ferments (wine, cider, tepache, etc), grain ferments (beer, sake, tongba, etc), and misc ferments (kombucha, pulque, kvass, etc).
Ryan Opaz, you sure know how to stir the lagar! That blind tasting of Oregon fruit based wines, followed by Minnesota’s finest examples using vitus riparia hybrids in your folks kitchen was an eye opening and mind expanding experience. Game changer, thanks again for that. There are many thought provoking concepts coming from this potential paradigm shift. At the end of the day, if it tastes good, it’s “base fermentable” doesn’t matter.
I think you might have just spilled the beans on a few things Ryan intends to blind me on in the near future. I won't tell if you don't. 🤣🤣🤣
Oops. So sorry. My lips are sealed. Probably too late. Sorry, Ryan.
Ha! My liquid agnostic mantra final comes to fruit-ition :) Nice recap of what is absolutely required listening for anyone who works in wine today.
I am publishing an interview with Iago I did a few months ago regarding climate change and winemakers embracing change. I think it is certainly much harder in old, traditional wine cultures where wine is an identity and the cling to the old. But if they don't innovate with things like PIWIs or training, they won't have wine. I'm going to check out that podcast.
Can't wait to read that interview.
Hoping by Monday
I was going to comment with THAT* photo of grapes but substack won't let me
Ha! I can't believe how much THAT photo is still being used.....
If someone wants to make "wine" from apples, pears or whatever it's fine, just don't call it wine. For the simple reason, it will confuse consumers. Many already, including my parents, think that when someone says, "I taste citrus in this Grüner Veltliner", assume that the wine was made with lemons. If wine suddenly starts being made with other fruits the consumers will revolt. We've taken so much effort and time to educate consumers about wine, and we aren't done yet, but if we start adding more fruits to wine, consumers are just going to turn to other beverage -- confusion and stress shouldn't be on the menu at a restaurant.
You're making the assumption that diversifying a category will hurt the category, but I'm not sure that's the case.
First, if you look back in history, wine has often been made from a blend of grapes with other fruits, herbs or additives (did you listen to the bit in Adam's podcast that talks about China's wine culture from the past?). The example that I quote in this article (Vino di Vitiole) is just one such tradition.
Second, look at beer. There are many traditional styles of beer, such as Oude Geuze (which is protected), that are mostly made without the addition of fruit. But there are plenty where brewers do add fruit and experiment. I don't see that this causes any more or less confusion amongst consumers than we already see in wine. It just allows for a greater range of flavours and products, something that consumers readily embrace. I also don't see, for example, that the fine old tradition of Oude Geuze has been in any way compromised by there being other examples of Geuze on the market that have fruit added. There is room for both.
To be clear, I believe in protecting traditional categories, and there will always be connoisseurs who seek out single vineyard Grüner Veltliner, Chardonnay or whatever. But this feeling that wine is a fortress that needs to be protected from all comers is a problem.
In my humble 😉 opinion your extensive knowledge and I am guessing, decades of experience, on this topic is a bias. I was in the tech industry for 25 years, and I only entered the wine industry a few years ago. I has the same issue, I assumed everyone knew about transistors, cloud computing and how data is stored in 0s and 1s. The circle of people I am typically around have little to no understanding of how wine is made. When you talk about how wine was made in China and Oude Geuze beer you illustrate my point you are not the average consumer. The average consumer is still trying to understand that “dry wine” means not sweet. That red wine is red from the grape skins, in most varieties. Consumers still don’t understand natural vs organic vs biodynamic. When they can sort this all out I am all for adding other fruits to wine. 😀
I think the bigger issue is that traditional wine knowledge is outdated. Wine, scientifically, is any fruit fermented. By EU law it's any vitis vinifera grape. I don't think consumers have any trouble finding something fun to drink and enjoying it, if we would only stop telling them that they need to understand it first.
Wine is a liquid with flavor...and right now the reductionist attitude of the past has led to huge wine shops with lots of similar drinks with different labels.
Where is the harm if a person accidentaly picks up a wine fermented with cantelope and enjoys it? What's the harm if they are confused between Prosecco or Cider? Maybe Prosecco will have an issue and need to work on branding better, but the consumer can just love it for what it is. I honestly don't see how any consumer is harmed.
Spoiler alert: Lots of my friends have ZERO idea how wine is made, but they still like it! Buy it, Drink it, and enjoy life! :)
As a winemaker and a viticulture/oenology student I am enjoying this discussion, so thanks. The harm is that as a consumer you should know exactly what you are buying, particularly if you are paying a premium price. Yes, your friends don't know how wine is made, but I guess at a minimum they know it's made from fermented grapes and not fermented grapes and cherries and pears -- and if it is made from other fruits it should be clearly started. Similar to how we know that cider is made from apples and not pumpkins. This is exactly why the EU has mandated ingredient labels starting this year for wine bottles -- to help consumers and this would address the issue if more wines are fermented with different fruits. Putting wine aside, there was a similar discussion about what can be called "milk". In the US, the FDA states that all milk alternatives, whether it's oat milk, hemp milk, or even coconut milk, can in fact be called “milk.” The EU doesn't see it that way, these products are called "drink". I would be happy to try wine fermented with cantaloupe, but if the bottles says "Burgundy" and "vin", then I expect an oak aged Chardonnay and not something that tastes like a cantaloupe daiquiri. : )
Yes no one is saying to pull the wool over your eyes...call a spade a spade, but why not have canteloupe wine...I'm not asking for wines made from pricklypear to not be called that, just that they can and should sit next to other wines from other things like, grapes for instance.